Attendance based on signing the roster was as follows:
Name Affiliation Name Affiliation
Dabulla, Altin General Cable
Fitzgerald, Jim The Okonite Company
Gwal, Ajit Defense Safety Board
Konnik, Robert Rockbestos Surprenant
Maldonado, Art-Chair Cable USA, Inc.
Merando, John Jr. The Bechtel Corporation
Shoshani, Gil Rockbestos Surprenant
Smith, Don-Vice Chair Houston Wire and Cable
St. Onge, Mark Rockbestos Surprenant
Trevino, Javier Intertek-ETL
McGrath, Blair Tyco Thermal Controls
Rudd, Tom Shawflex
Wobick, Bob Dekoron Wire and Cable
The agenda included the following:
• Introduction of members and guests
• IEEE SA Standards Board Bylaws on Patents & Inappropriate Topics for IEEE Working Group meetings
• Approve Fall 2008 meeting minutes, minutes are available on the IEEE website under:
www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/pes/icc/subcommittees/subcom_d/wg_d17/D17Minutes.htm
• Review Action Items of Fall 2008 meeting
• Review IEEE P1717 Standard Draft 4
• Discussion of proposed changes to the standard
• Review objectives to be accomplished before next meeting
Chairman Maldonado welcomed all ICC members and guests to the working group meeting. Introductions of each attendee were made along with their affiliation. After the introductions were completed Chairman Maldonado provided an opportunity for participants to identify patent claims, patent application claims, or patent application claims of which the participant is personally aware and that may be essential for the use of this standard. No patent claims, patent application claims, or holders of patent claims or patent application claims have been identified at this time.
Fall 2008 Minutes
The minutes of the Fall 2008 meeting were voted on and approved without dissent.
PAR Approval Date
Chairman Maldonado stated that the PAR for IEEE-P1717 was approved on February 27, 2007 and the committee has until December 31, 2011 to approve and issue final Standard.
Action Items
Chairman Maldonado reviewed the action items from the last meeting in San Antonio, TX as follows:
| ITEM # | Description | Responsible | Status |
| 1 | Section 4.2 - Write a cable tray description. | Mick Bayer | COMPLETED |
| 2 | Section 4.4 - Gas to be whatever is local to lab. | Committee | PENDING |
| 3 | Section 4.8 - Power Supply Setup - Write this up using UL 2196 wording as an example. | John Merando | PENDING |
| 4 | Section 5.1 – Cable Samples – Wording of test voltages, cable categories, test gauge sizes, etc. Break down into size/conductor count for Power, Control, & Instrumentation | Art Maldonado | COMPLETED |
| 5 | Section 5.1 — Write wording for sample selection similar to the wording used in UL 2196. | John Merando/Jerry Liskom | PENDING |
| 6 | Section 5.2 - Wording conduit size and user defined configurations such as boxes, splices, troughs, etc | Mick Bayer | COMPLETED |
| 7 | Section 5.2 — Revise this section to drop “in accord with NEC”, and other “wordsmithing” as required. | Committee | COMPLETED |
| 8 | Section 6.1 — Sample length and mounting will change. Words “over burner” will be deleted. Use of consistent wording “sample” or “specimen” will be made through out the document. (5 foot sample, 4’-test+1’-connections) | Javier Trevino | COMPLETED |
| 9 | Section 6.2 — Timing was discussed, left open to comments and tabled until next meeting. (20 mins) | Committee | COMPLETED |
| 10 | Section 6.2 – Test temperature range=2000°F - 2060°F | ||
| 11 | Section 7.2 - Re-visit this section and compare to wording in IEEE 1202-2006. | Gil Soshani | PENDING |
| 12 | Sections 7.1 and 7.2 - Requirements for multiple tests and reports to cover variables defined by end user. | Committee | PENDING |
Discussion on the actions items was as follows:
Action Item #1 Cable tray description and photo was submitted by Mick Bayer and incorporated into Draft 4.
Action Item #2 Chairman Maldonado suggested that the standard should recommend a gas like MAPP gas which would heat the test chamber up quickly. Javier Trevino described UL 1709 and suggested that most major test labs probably use natural gas in their test chambers as MAPP gas is not always readily available. After some discussion it was determined that the standard would leave the selection of gas to whatever is readily available to the test lab which will get the temperature in the test chamber up to required temperature quickly, but that the standard might list some suggested gasses which might be used.
Action Item #3 John Merando accepted the responsibility to get this wording ready by the next meeting. Bob Konnik offered to supply information from U 2196 if John needs help. Further discussion regarding power supply setup, questions regarding testing for voltage, current or continuity using light bulb vs motor then led to a discussion of different loads for different sizes of wire as is described in Section 5.1 . It was decided to leave the wording of 4.8 as it is currently written except to correct the word “well” in 4.8.1.2 to “wye”.
Action Item—Gil Shoshoni will submit information on recommended type of light bulb.
Action Item #4 & #5 Section 5.1 – Discussion around wording entered into Draft 4. This is a test method and not an application guide and it is impossible to test every size and construction of cable. Representative sizes and designs should be tested. Review of the scope of the PAR brought the group to a consensus that we should start with a suggested list.
Examples:
Instrumentation--------------- 2/conductor #16 300V
Low Voltage Control-------- 4/conductor #14 600V
Low Voltage Power----------4/conductor #12 600V
Low Voltage Large Power--4/conductor #2 600V (similar to UL 1277 crush & impact test)
Discussion turned to medium voltage cable and the group determined that MV cable is outside of the scope of the PAR. John Merando & Jerry Liskom will continue to work on wording of sample selection section similar to wording used in UL2196.
Action Item #6 Mick Bayer sent in conduit recommended conduit sizes which Chairman Maldonado will incorporate into the next draft of the proposed standard. Various conduit materials were discussed and it was determined that a caution about using materials, such as aluminum, that would melt during the test should be incorporated into the standard.
Action Item
—Bob Konnik will submit wording of caution regarding types of conduits used in testing.Action Item
—Gil Shoshoni will submit wording of a caution about pulling lubricant effect on cable and possible effect on test outcome if used.Action Item #7 Completed
Action Item # 8 Javier Trevino completed this action item but further discussion by the group came up with a recommended 4’ to cross the inside of the test chamber plus 3’ extra on each side for connections outside of the chamber. This 10’ length converts to approximately 3.1 meters.
Action Item
—Ajit Gwal to provide wording on sample lengths from IEEE 848 for consideration.Action Item # 9 Time of test was settled on 20 minutes burn time based on customer requirements in the petrochemical industry. The timing will allow for 5 minutes preliminary heat rise and 15 minutes of burn test.
Action Table section on vibration component. No reliable test has been found. Remove wording “ribbon burner”.
Action Item # 10 Test temperature will be 2050°C plus or minus 50°C.
Last sentence of this paragraph removed to eliminate words “Adjust the damper to provide a neutral pressure “ .
Action Item # 11 Gil Shoshoni completed.
Action Item #12 Completed
Action Item
—Section 7.2 (18) Furnace Pressure ---Remove from list.Action Item
—Chairman Maldonado change Appendix A, Fast Rise Temperature Curve chart to show 2050°C temperature.Action Item
—Javier Trevino reword calibration information in Section 4.10 for new 2050°C temperature.Action Item
—Chairman Maldonado will post revised document on the website for group comments once changes are incorporated. Try for comments before next ICC meeting.Next meeting November 8-10 Scottsdale, AZ
(Note: The deadline to submit the different sections to Vice Chairman Don Smith should be September 30, 2009).
Next Meeting
Chairman Maldonado stated that the next meeting of this group would be at the Fall, 2009, ICC meeting in Scottsdale, AZ from November 9-13, 2009.
The chair called the meeting to a close at the expiration of the allotted time. Minutes written by the Vice Chair, Don Smith and Chair, Art Maldonado and reviewed by member John Merando and submitted on June 18, 2009.
1. Introduction of members and guests
2. Review IEEE patent and confidential information slides
3. Approve Spring 2009 meeting minutes
4. Review IEEE P1717 Standard Draft 4
5. Discussion of proposed changes to the standard
6. Review objectives to be accomplished before next meeting
7. Adjourn
Working Group D17W met in Scottsdale, AZ on Wednesday November 11, 2009 with 13 members and nonmembers present. Chairman Art Maldonado amaldonado@cableusa.cc presided. Vice Chairman Don Smith dsmith@houwire.com took notes.
Working Group Members in attendance were as follows:
Present WG Member /Affiliation Present WG Member /Affiliation
Blackford, Peter M., Cable USA Y McGrath, Blair, Tyco Thermal Controls
Y Bayer, Michael G., KBR Moubed, Nader, Anixter Canada
Y Bloeth, William, Sargent Lundy, LLC Merando Jr., John E., Bechtel
Bow, Ken, Kabel Consult Parker, Neal K., Puget Sound Energy
Y Cancelosi, John R., The Okonite Company Y Rudd, Tom, Shawflex
Dabulla, Altin, General Cable Savage, Gary, Draka
Demair, Robert, The Okonite Conpany Y Shoshani, Gil, Rockbestos-Surprenant
Duer, Nick, General Cable Y Smith, Don, Houston W & C -Vice Chair
Fitzgerald, Jim, The Okonite Company Spear, Bert, Duke Energy
Y Graham, Steve, Duke Energy Y St. Onge, Mark, Rockbestos-Surprenant Cable Corp.
Gwal, Ajit, Defense Safety Board Stafford, Vicki, Intertek (ETL)
Konnik, Robert Rockbestos-Suprenant Y Trevino, Javier, Intertek (ETL)
Y Maldonado, Art, Cable USA-Chair Von Laue, Lukas, Nexans
Non-Members in attendance were as follows:
Participant Affiliation
Gehm, Robert Rockbestos Surprenant Cable Corp
Sharp, John Southwest Research Institute
Taylor, Gabriel NRC
Thomas, Denise Excelon
Stephan, Stan Dekoron
Chairman Maldonado welcomed all ICC members and guests to the working group meeting. Introductions of each attendee were made along with their affiliation. After the introductions were completed Chairman Maldonado reviewed the IEEE SA Standards Board Bylaws on Patents, Copyrights & Inappropriate Topics for IEEE Working Group meetings.
Chairman Maldonado provided an opportunity for participants to identify patent claims, patent application claims, or patent application claims of which the participant is personally aware and that may be essential for the use of this standard. No patent claims, patent application claims, or holders of patent claims or patent application claims have been identified at this time.
The agenda included the following:
• Introduction of members and guests
• Review IEEE patent and confidential information slides
• Approve Spring 2009 meeting minutes, minutes are available on the IEEE website under:
www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/pes/icc/subcommittees/subcom_d/wg_d17/D17Minutes.htm
• Review Action Items of Spring 2009 meeting
• Review IEEE P1717 Standard Draft 4
• Discussion of proposed changes to the standard
• Show photos of test results and test procedure performed to P1717 at INTERTEK.
• Review objectives to be accomplished before next meeting
Adjourn
Spring 2009 Minutes
The minutes of the Spring 2009 meeting were voted on and approved without dissent.
Action Items
Chairman Maldonado reviewed the two action items from Spring meeting and discussed actions on each:
Chairman Maldonado thanked Javier Trevino for assistance in the design of the Test Chamber and burner assembly. He explained how it follows the design of the test chamber designated in UL 1709 which will help with test consistency. It also helps with the heat rise performance of the test component.This is a continuation of Action Item # 8 from Fall 2008 as addressed in Spring 2009 meeting.
Action Item
Action Item #4 Section 5.1 – Discussion around wording entered into Draft 4.
Action Item Add /change this information in newest Draft
Representative sizes and designs recommended to be tested.
Examples:
Instrumentation--------------- 2/conductor #16 300V . If it passes it qualifies shielded and non-shielded.
Low Voltage Control-------- 4/conductor #14 600V
Test for Low Voltage Power----------4/conductor #12 600V instead of 3 conductor #12 with ground
Eliminate large power size multi-conductor sample i.e. #2-3/conductor with ground 600V.
If large single conductor i.e. 1/0 ( 27% nickel clad copper conductor) passes then the large sizes qualify.
Discussion of medium voltage cable, the group determined that MV cable could be tested for continuity just as 600V
Action Item #7 Wording regarding pulling lubricants. This was discussed and continued to be completed before the next meeting so it can be included in draft #5.
ACTION ITEMS # 8 , #9 & #10 from Fall 2008 which were re opened and discussed further.
Action Item # 8 Sample Size --Javier Trevino completed this action item but further discussion by the group came up with a recommended 4’ to cross the inside of the test chamber plus 3’ extra on each side for connections outside of the chamber. This 10’ length converts to approximately 3.1 meters.
Action Item # 9 Section 6.2 -Time of test was settled on 20 minutes burn time based on past customer requirements in the petrochemical industry. The timing will allow for 5 minutes preliminary heat rise and 15 minutes of burn test. Eliminate the words “or user defined”
Action Item # 10 Test temperature will be 2050 C plus or minus 50 C .
Chairman Maldonado then gave a presentation of a circuit integrity test to the current draft requirements of P1717 as performed at INTERTEK.
Action Item –Section 4.8 Wordsmith to change all VAC to V AC with a space between V and AC to conform with UL 2196.
Action Item—Section 4.8.6 Chairman Maldonado will add wording to indicate test ampacity requirement for Instrumentation and Control is only 3 amps.
Action Item—Gil Shoshoni will submit wording for a statement about pulling lubricant when testing in conduit.
Action Item -- Gil Shoshoni will submit wording to add to Conduit section to the effect that “ Conduit will not be supported by tray, but will be mounted across the chamber” Per UL 2196 This is added to meet NEC standards.
Action Item --- Section 5.1 Add “Manufacturers part number is adequate for traceability of cables certified.”
Action Item—Chairman Maldonado will post revised document on the website for group comments once changes are incorporated. Try for comments before next ICC meeting.
A list of Action Items is shown on Appendix A
Chairman Maldonado indicated that he would like to send Par out for a first ballot before next meeting. Chairman Maldonado reminded everyone that the Spring 2010 meeting will be in Nashville, TN March 21-24 at the Sheraton Music City Hotel.
The meeting was adjourned.
